Thread: Tanaka tires of "Fatigue" rumors.

Its really not bad at all. Play various classes..if you get to surplus, don't play that one for a day or two...and worst case it all resets after a week

I have been thinking about the fatigue system and reading anything official I can find. I have avoided jumping into the discussions about the topic because most of them have been pretty heated. At any rate, I have a bit to say, so apologies in advance. Short-version (for those who don't like eye-bleeders), I applaud their goal and question their implementation.

The long quote from Suzaku places the system in context. It's a correct description, but it's not necessarily the right way of thinking about the system. Suzaku's explanation is mechanical, not perceptual. Thus, its an accurate statement of how it works - which, unfortunately, has very little to do with how people process information.

It's the perception that matters and the perception of having your xp lessened (to the point of 0) is a punishment for playing, not a reward for diversified play (which is what the SE devs perceive).

Make no mistake, I like the idea SE is going for, I question the implementation on a few fronts.

1. The 0-point in the system is unneeded and, in fact, is most of the reason the system is perceived as punishment. While I see the 0-point cap on adventure level as a mechanic that helps keep adventure and skill levels from getting too out of whack, it's easy to see excessive diminishing returns as a punishment for play. The problem with punishing players for play is that it conditions them to not play. While the intention is to condition them to play diversely, I fear they are expecting A (diverse play) while rewarding (via conditioning) B (ceasing play).

2. While the fatigue system is intended to get people to play other classes, its main effect is to make people not play the class they want to play (at that time). It's the same problem I have with a hardcore system (one death and your character is gone forever). In concept its okay, in practice it gives your customer pause - a pause to reconsider their purchase. Frankly, that's not the business model for an MMO. The MMO model is one where you feel like you should play. When done poorly, this lends itself to "play for days straight" which is certainly what the SE-team is trying to avoid (and I commend their intent here). When done well, though, the MMO model gives you a sense of achievement being one small step away. It's a highly addictive method of customer management and keeps the subs. From a business point of view, I always wonder when a company makes a decision to turn a customer away (again, its the implementation, not the concept).

3. This system will do a reasonable job of putting a governor on leveling. To that end, it will positively reduce the manifestation of the race to the top and it should negatively reduce the manifestation of leveling services (good and good). It shouldn't impact most potential players directly (it will impact perceptions and detrimentally hits word of mouth at a time the game should be getting some positive vibes). It will be a negative for the light player eventually though. A year, or two, out when most people are near max level - this system will work against new players catching up. Since this title doesn't yet have a level-sync system (that I have found or read about, I'll be happy to be wrong), the fatigue system has the effect of keeping late starters from catching up. This is not a good thing for retention of new accounts around expansions and major milestones (although it could largely be alleviated with level sync).

Generally, I think their idea of rewarding the first 5-8 hours of gameplay a week and promoting diversified skill development is a good one. Their method is not well thought out though. It uses the wrong conditioning cues and introduces a business model somewhat at odds with good business sense.

Most of this could be fixed by (1) eliminating the zero point, (2) reworking the amortization schedule so that the drop-offs are not as pronounced (already in works from what I read) and (3) displaying the information within the client as a positive, not a negative. An xp message of [You earn 100xp and 1100 bonus xp (97% bonus remaining)] works a lot better than seeing diminishing effects - even when numerically its the same thing (framing effects are one of many well-documented cognitive biases).

One of the odd things about this, to me, is that framing and cognitive biases related to them are not uniquely western.

Sorry for the long-post. There are a few million fatigue threads out there on the Internets, this one was happily not full of hyperbole.

For the most part I agree with Nicophorus. The way that the fatigue system is presented does lead to a negative view of what is trying to be accomplished, which is unfortunate as the overall goal is laudable. They are right in their assertion that displaying tooltips and messages detailing the effects in the manner that has been done leads to the inevitable conclusion that it is a punishment, and that this gives players pause for thought. Nicophorus is also correct in that it would have a negative effect on new players as well as casual gamers.

My issue is this, however. If the aim is the diversify the classes that an individual plays, why place a limitation on the leves that one can do?

Perhaps I am missing something, if someone could slap me about a bit and tell me why I'm wrong I'd be most grateful, but if the aim is to encourage individuals to level all the various crafting and gathering classes that they can, as well as their Disciple of War or Magic classes, then why limit the amount of quests available per 48 hours. It would seem counter-intuitive. Admittedly I have not really looked into whether there will still be a cap after the official release, but if there is it will be a huge issue.

Say you come to the end of the experience gain for playing a Pugilist, and decide to level one of the crafting classes, say Goldsmithing, the fatigue system would mean that even though you are still playing you can not exceed a particular physical level per week. However, the limitation on Local Levequests means that after a particular amount of time the only recourse in leveling another class, regardless of the fatigue system, is a grind in either crafting or gathering, something which can become boring quite quickly. If I wanted to level through grinding I'd head back to World of Warcraft and cry myself to sleep every night. Again.

Essentially, the system penalises anyone who plays more than 16 hours every two days. Again Nicophorus points out that this would be highly detrimental to their sales and customer relations. I mean, why pay for something when you can't play properly after 16 hours?

If the fatigue system is permanent then the limitation on Levequests cannot be, else the game becomes useless after a relatively short amount of time. Whilst I can understand that they do not wish to encourage a, "race to the top", as it was put, limiting the ability of a player to advance through the content of the game would seem to be a big mistake, at least in the player's view. Though it does enable SE to get away with not having huge amounts of content, since the content played can only be realistically played in limited amounts per 2 days/week.

If you are enjoying playing the game and have the time available then you want to continue playing, but the fatigue system appears to be some form of inbuilt parental control. Personally I don't need nor want such a thing, I'm capable of managing my own time and resent being forced into a model of game play that SE think is a good idea. Which gives me pause to reconsider playing.

A few have previously pointed out that if they are enjoying playing a class then they shouldn't be forced into having to play another. This for me seems a trifling complaint, since each class seems just about as enjoyable to play as any other. After all, its the content you are playing not the manner in which you play it. If you want to bash some cute looking marmots on the head what does it matter if you're doing it as an Archer or a Gladiator. If you want to go out and gather things what does it matter if you're doing it as a Miner or a Fisherperson (politically correct!).

I don't think the fatigue system is quite as bad as people make out, but as someone pointed out in an earlier post, there wouldn't be such a negative reaction to it if it wasn't a cause for concern for most people.

If SE changed the fatigue system to only affect physical EXP, whilst tying the class EXP into the physical EXP (say for instance, that you cannot exceed the physical level in any class. If your physical level is at 10 then your class level shouldn't go above that, forcing you to change class once you hit the level cap for that week.) The fatigue system should also be based on experience gained and not time, because it is true that real life things get in the way of time played, and having to log out every time you need to go to the loo or cook some food or beat your kids into submission till they leave you alone will become tedious quickly. Especially if you're incontinent.

As for PR and communication; ever has it been that those in control neglect to detail their thoughts to the plebeians over whom they govern. On the other hand they did apologise for their mistake, which is more than most developers would do. Though it does seem ridiculous that they failed to translate from Japanese to English correctly, given the large percentage of the world that lamentably doesn't speak Japanese.

Couple things real quick Jaizehait. Guildleves are not quests, people need to get this one to sink in 'cuz there is a reason they are refered to in game as Guildleves and not as quests. There is no limitation to how many quests you do, only thing is there is like 2 quests in the game because this, is, beta. And anyway from what I gather Guildleves are not how SE intends for us to rake in the exp. This game is a grinder you need to accept that or walk away.

Second is the fatigue system is based on experience gained and not on time. The amount of exp in each tier of fatigue is based on what SE thinks you should earn in an hour, not an actual hour of playing.

Originally Posted by Varizen

Really it's just trying to help you fill out your ability list so you can have more abilities to customize your character how you like. Later on, I'm sure there are lots of abilities that you're not really gonna be able to use all the time (Like Enduring March) that are great in certain circumstances, but are pointless to have on your bar at all times.

I would totally agree with this, however Physical Level is affected as well. Meaning, if I cap Conjurer for the week and decide to level Thaumaturge, I will get Thaumaturge skill points only and zero experience points. Also, crafting/gathering will give you zero exp. It kills one of the major incentives for working on side jobs.

The physical level cap needs to be removed or at least be 2-4x the job-specific cap.